Heel Toe...Necessary?

[Bald0]

I know what this is and the basics on how to do it...i do it all the time in my 84 toyota pickup

but is it honestly necessary?...they do it all the time BMI videos...but what if they didnt do it? slower lap times?

[Traction Issuez]

if they didn't do it it would lock the rear wheels and spin the car, depending on the situation that is, but you get my point.

[doubledeuce]

it's done to keep revs up and match engine speed to wheel speed for a smoother transition. similar results as double clutching, which is not necassary when drag racing, i don't care what Vin Diesel says.

[JohnnyWash1]

Originally Posted by gtx323

if they didn't do it it would lock the rear wheels and spin the car, depending on the situation that is, but you get my point.

What? That is not why they do it. If you downshift normally, the car will slow down as you lower the gear. If you don't match the RPMs while downshifting, the speed change will be jerky and dramatic. The entire reason they do it is for smooth weight transfer. They can control the weight transfer with the brakes while switching to the appropriate gear. It would slow the lap times down if they didn't do it, since they would have to approach and leave corners slower.


Jon

[JohnnyWash1]

Originally Posted by doubledeuce

it's done to keep revs up and match engine speed to wheel speed for a smoother transition. similar results as double clutching, which is not necassary when drag racing, i don't care what Vin Diesel says.

Double clutching is only used for cars without synchronizers. Or if your synchros are going bad.

[Traction Issuez]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

What? That is not why they do it. If you downshift normally, the car will slow down as you lower the gear. If you don't match the RPMs while downshifting, the speed change will be jerky and dramatic. The entire reason they do it is for smooth weight transfer. They can control the weight transfer with the brakes while switching to the appropriate gear. It would slow the lap times down if they didn't do it, since they would have to approach and leave corners slower.


Jon

so your telling me if i was to downshift at high rpm to a lower gear it won't lock the rear wheels???????? are you sure about that?

i gave a laymans term of it for him cause i knew someone would go into greater detail on what i said, not tell me i'm wrong.you went to a more tecnical meaning.

if you can say that what i said doesn't happen then i guess i don't know shit.

[JohnnyWash1]

No, the rear wheels won't lock. I'm saying exactly that. They may break traction if it is done too quickly, but they won't lock.

[Traction Issuez]

oh dear god.

[JohnnyWash1]

I will not start another internet fight with somebody on this site who thinks they know something based off of a half-truth. You are heel toe is a technique that combines rev-matching and braking. It is not simply rev-matching nor is it simply threshold braking. When you have actually done it, on a track, then we can talk about why you do it. Until then, I am done with this conversation and those who think they know why racers do what they do.

[JohnnyWash1]

Before getting into a pissing contest, I want to say that some differentials will lock with a VERY fast downshift. However, in my experience, this has not been a problem or a reason for heel/toe. I realize I got caught up in arguing again, and I apologize, GTX. When racing, speed is key. Sometimes the fastest line requires the driver to do many things at once. This is when heel/toeing becomes necessary. I have broken traction with quick downshifts before, but I have never locked up a rear. Through some research, I have realized that some people do run into this problem, but it doesn't seem to be very common in racing at my level (low).


Jon

[Bald0]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

No, the rear wheels won't lock. I'm saying exactly that. They may break traction if it is done too quickly, but they won't lock.

i think u are saying that they will break traction and others mean the same thing by saying "lock"... no use fighting

ty all for the info

[Verrückt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

What? That is not why they do it. If you downshift normally, the car will slow down as you lower the gear. If you don't match the RPMs while downshifting, the speed change will be jerky and dramatic. The entire reason they do it is for smooth weight transfer. They can control the weight transfer with the brakes while switching to the appropriate gear. It would slow the lap times down if they didn't do it, since they would have to approach and leave corners slower.


Jon

He is right. Locking means the wheels slow to a rotational speed below the vehicle speed. Breaking traction means the same thing. When the drive wheels break traction, this will cause instability and can cause a spin. Jerky weight transfer will upset the chassis.

There is nothing wrong with his statement, so chill out man.

[JohnnyWash1]

Originally Posted by Verrückt

He is right. Locking means the wheels slow to a rotational speed below the vehicle speed. Breaking traction means the same thing. When the drive wheels break traction, this will cause instability and can cause a spin. Jerky weight transfer will upset the chassis.

There is nothing wrong with his statement, so chill out man.

Did you not see my last post? Anyway, locking wheels does not mean slow down or break traction; what really happens in certain types of differentials is the actual axle will lock with a fast downshift at high speeds--thus actually locking the wheels in place as if you had slammed on the brakes (without ABS).


Jon

[Verrückt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

Did you not see my last post? Anyway, locking wheels does not mean slow down or break traction; what really happens in certain types of differentials is the actual axle will lock with a fast downshift at high speeds--thus actually locking the wheels in place as if you had slammed on the brakes (without ABS).


Jon

We're not talking about differential lock. Any differential worth a damn will have minimal effect on braking distribution. Plus, you "should" be braking before the corner (as well as heel-toeing) so even if the differential did lock...it wouldn't effect chassis balance. The wheels will be rotating at the same rate anyway.

A rough downshift will lock (the wheels) briefly in the same manner as pulling the ebrake. If the chassis is on the verge of being unsettled, this is more than enough to toss the car into a spin.

This is something very basic that you'd likely be taught within the first half an hour of a driving school. I don't even know why you're trying to debate it.

[BlackXJ96]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

Did you not see my last post? Anyway, locking wheels does not mean slow down or break traction; what really happens in certain types of differentials is the actual axle will lock with a fast downshift at high speeds--thus actually locking the wheels in place as if you had slammed on the brakes (without ABS).


Jon

to-may-to to-mah-to, you're both saying essentially the same, just using diffrent terminology. People and regions define things differently. To you locking means the wheels stop altogether, to him locking means the wheels break loose. No sense arguing. Kinda like with rims. I used to correct people all the time cuz the rim is not what connects the tire to the vehicle. The rim is precisely that, the rim of the wheel. The wheel is the entire assembly that the tire is on and that connects to the hub on the car. But we mean the same thing so I just let it go.