Heel Toe...Necessary?

[JohnnyWash1]

Originally Posted by Verrückt

We're not talking about differential lock. Any differential worth a damn will have minimal effect on braking distribution. Plus, you "should" be braking before the corner (as well as heel-toeing) so even if the differential did lock...it wouldn't effect chassis balance. The wheels will be rotating at the same rate anyway.

A rough downshift will lock (the wheels) briefly in the same manner as pulling the ebrake. If the chassis is on the verge of being unsettled, this is more than enough to toss the car into a spin.

This is something very basic that you'd likely be taught within the first half an hour of a driving school. I don't even know why you're trying to debate it.

Settle it, e-thug. I'm happy you came on and straightened things out, since we don't have a damn clue about anything here. By the way, I've been to two performance driving schools--I guess I went to the wrong ones. Anyway, I'm done here, at least with you.

[JohnnyWash1]

Originally Posted by BlackXJ96

to-may-to to-mah-to, you're both saying essentially the same, just using diffrent terminology. People and regions define things differently. To you locking means the wheels stop altogether, to him locking means the wheels break loose. No sense arguing. Kinda like with rims. I used to correct people all the time cuz the rim is not what connects the tire to the vehicle. The rim is precisely that, the rim of the wheel. The wheel is the entire assembly that the tire is on and that connects to the hub on the car. But we mean the same thing so I just let it go.

werd

[Verrückt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

Settle it, e-thug. I'm happy you came on and straightened things out, since we don't have a damn clue about anything here. By the way, I've been to two performance driving schools--I guess I went to the wrong ones. Anyway, I'm done here, at least with you.

Relax man. You seem to have a problem holding a simple discussion without it getting heated. No one is flaming you.

What driving schools did you go to? What tracks?

FYI I have a fair amount of experience in Formula Cars and street cars. I also have experience designing and building race cars. Currently I design engine internals for very well known European and American automakers. I'm not just making stuff up. You don't need to take my word for it though, a simple google search will also tell you everything you need to know.

Heal / toe downshifting is simply a method of using your right foot to actuate the gas and brake pedals at the same time. This is necessary to smoothly downshift, while braking, for corner entry. In short, while the left side of your foot applies continuing firm brake pressure, the right side of your foot "blips" the gas pedal to raise the RPMs just as your left foot disengages the clutch pedal. When done properly, this allows you to brake at the limit of adhesion and downshift simultaneously -- without locking up the rear wheels of the car. Another way to do this, that I am less familiar with, is left-foot braking. Left-foot braking is most applicable in high-speed corners where trailing off the brakes deep into the corner can be the key to speed.

Heel toe shifting is a race shifting technique that allows drivers to downshift quickly while applying the brakes. Proper heal toe shifting keeps the engine, transmission, and wheel speed matched up so there is no jolt through the driveline while downshifting.

Not really needed on the street, but driving on the track you HAVE to either heel toe or double clutch to keep the car stable under downshift braking. If you're braking hard with the brakes and drive train with your revs not up there, then you're likely to end up looking the way you just came from.

Not in the Ferrari, but here's a lap of me racing at Motor Sport Ranch CC in the Spec. RX7. The 2nd turn at the end of the long straight you can hear me rev it as I'm downshifting. There's also a couple other areas I do the same, actually anytime I'm downshifting.

http://www.spec7.org/videos/MSR1_29_5lap2002.mpg

On most cars it's really not a heal toe, it's more of little toe roll. The left edge of your foot is all the way down on the brake and when bliping you just roll the right side of your foot over the gas without a change in pressure on the brake.

E-thug. LOL. That made me laugh.

[JohnnyWash1]

Originally Posted by Verrückt

Relax man. You seem to have a problem holding a simple discussion without it getting heated. No one is flaming you.

What driving schools did you go to? What tracks?

FYI I have a fair amount of experience in Formula Cars and street cars. I also have experience designing and building race cars. Currently I design engine internals for very well known European and American automakers. I'm not just making stuff up. You don't need to take my word for it though, a simple google search will also tell you everything you need to know.


E-thug. LOL. That made me laugh.

Alright, I'll respond. The simple reason I got heated is because we get alot of younger internet users here that argue with anybody at the drop of a hat. Earlier in this post I made the mistake of saying lock-up was not a problem--but it apparently is, I just have never experienced it. My point of view came from simply breaking traction, not actually locking the axle. Anyway, all is well now, I suppose. I have attended 2 factory backed high speed driving schools, one by Ford and another by Mazda. Neither were at a major track that you would know. Which Formula cars have you raced? Have you actually driven a F1 car? That would be thrilling, to say the least.


Jon

[Verrückt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

Alright, I'll respond. The simple reason I got heated is because we get alot of younger internet users here that argue with anybody at the drop of a hat. Earlier in this post I made the mistake of saying lock-up was not a problem--but it apparently is, I just have never experienced it. My point of view came from simply breaking traction, not actually locking the axle. Anyway, all is well now, I suppose. I have attended 2 factory backed high speed driving schools, one by Ford and another by Mazda. Neither were at a major track that you would know. Which Formula cars have you raced? Have you actually driven a F1 car? That would be thrilling, to say the least.


Jon

No problem man. It's good to have discussions...it doesn't need to turn into an argument.

I've never been fortunate enough to drive an F1 car, but maybe someday. I have a good friend who works for Toyota F1, so I do get to see the cars on a regular basis.

I have been involved with the design, build, and development of a few Formula SAE cars such as this one and this one. Both cars have a better power/weight ratio than any street car sold. They go 0-60 in about 3 flat and reach over 1.4 g on the skidpad. Fun little cars. I've also been in a friend's Van Diemen Formula Ford. In street cars, I enjoy many of the US and European tracks. The Nürburgring is probably my favorite...and definitely the most challenging.

[JohnnyWash1]

I see you were/are part of your school's racing team. I almost joined the UW's racing team back when I was at the UW....oh well. I would love to race at Nurburgring, but I haven't had the chance. My favorite US track is Laguna Seca--even though I have never raced there. Something about tackling the corkscrew. Anyway, good to have another racer aboard.


Jon

[Verrückt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

I see you were/are part of your school's racing team. I almost joined the UW's racing team back when I was at the UW....oh well. I would love to race at Nurburgring, but I haven't had the chance. My favorite US track is Laguna Seca--even though I have never raced there. Something about tackling the corkscrew. Anyway, good to have another racer aboard.


Jon

Yeah, I was on my school's team from '98-'01. Now I just do auto-X's and road courses for fun. It's easy here in Germany (I've recently moved over). You can go to the Nürburgring ring any time it's open and run balls out.

A few friends of mine race shifter karts...so I may jump into that as well. There isn't enough free time to do all that I want.

[SyncMaster]

Is it also suggested to use the heel-toe method on a FWD during laps?

I have a FWD car myself, and gave it a shot acouple of times and it didn't work so well. My gas pedal is not out enough to tap it when holding the brake, I really have to stretch my heel far down in order just to reach it which contorts my body and makes it awkward to drive. So now I resort to taping on the gas pedal during the shift to get the revs up for the next gear, then hit the brakes after.... and repeat if the turn requires to go two gears down.

[JohnnyWash1]

Originally Posted by SyncMaster

Is it also suggested to use the heel-toe method on a FWD during laps?

I have a FWD car myself, and gave it a shot acouple of times and it didn't work so well. My gas pedal is not out enough to tap it when holding the brake, I really have to stretch my heel far down in order just to reach it which contorts my body and makes it awkward to drive. So now I resort to taping on the gas pedal during the shift to get the revs up for the next gear, then hit the brakes after.... and repeat if the turn requires to go two gears down.

Yes it is, but you may need to modify the pedals. It is actually quite a common practice to adjust the pedals to make heel/toe easier. If you can master it, you will be quicker.

[Verrückt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyWash1

Yes it is, but you may need to modify the pedals. It is actually quite a common practice to adjust the pedals to make heel/toe easier. If you can master it, you will be quicker.

Yep.

You can see how the left side of my gas pedal extends out for easier heel-toeing.

[24VR666]

Hey Verruckt, I was just wondering where in Germany do you live? I'm planning to go visit my aunt in Frankfort around June. I was wondering if you or anyone you know owns a car that'll reach or exceed 200mph. This is my main goal when I go to Germany, ride the Autobahn, and if possible, drive a car at 200mph. Let me know if you think you can help me out.

BTW, nice S4! I'm a German-car fanatic.

[Verrückt]

Originally Posted by 24VR666

Hey Verruckt, I was just wondering where in Germany do you live? I'm planning to go visit my aunt in Frankfort around June. I was wondering if you or anyone you know owns a car that'll reach or exceed 200mph. This is my main goal when I go to Germany, ride the Autobahn, and if possible, drive a car at 200mph. Let me know if you think you can help me out.

BTW, nice S4! I'm a German-car fanatic.

Köln. That's about an hour from Frankfurt. I can hit about 185 mph with my stock gearing.

[24VR666]

Done deal, bro, I'm there!!

[JohnnyWash1]

Aww, Verruckt has a new buddy...

[jeremyg35]

yeah, i know this is an old thread that has gotten off-topic, but instead of starting a new one, i have a question:

do you have to heel-toe with your heel on the gas and your toe on the brake? this seems to be how it is done in the videos you see, but i find it easier to put the heel on the brake and my toe on the gas.

any comments?
by the way, the above is how i heel toe in my winter sentra, and only to practice it, not for any real reason
jeremy